Today in class we ended our unit on The Odyssey with a wonderful discussion on Alfred, Lord Tennyson's poem "Ulysses." One aspect of the poem we didn't address is the portrayal of Telemachus. What strikes you as important or significant about the second stanza of the poem?
This is my son, my own Telemachus,
To whom I leave the scepter and the isle---
Well-loved of me, discerning to fulfill
This labor, by slow prudence to make mild
A rugged people, and through soft degrees
Subdue them to the useful and the good.
Most blameless is he, centered in the sphere
Of common duties, decent not to fail
In offices of tenderness, and pay
Meet adoration to my household gods,
When I am gone. He works his work, I mine.
How does this stanza fit in with the poem as a whole? What do we learn about how Ulysses views Telemachus? What kind of father is Ulysses? What kind of king? What sort of ruler or son is Telemachus? What sorts of ruler or leader does the poem privilege? In what way does Tennyson's poem comment on the father/son dynamic at play in The Odyssey? Does knowing the story of The Odyssey influence your interpretation? How or how not?
(As always, don't feel like you need to address all these questions in your post. They are meant to provoke a discussion. A successful blog post will quote from the poem(s) as evidence, and refer back to and comment on the posts of others making similar points.)
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
I think this poem shows Ulysses's true feelings towards his son. I think it shows that Ulysses does not relate to Telemachus. He knows Telemachus is a part of him and that he is a good man, but he is not as close to him as he would have liked. It fits with the perception we talked about in class, where Ulysses could be saying this on his death bed.
ReplyDeleteHe understands that when he leaves, Telemachus will take his spot. I believe he trusts that his son will be a good king, but in a different way than his own. He is saying Telemachus is more gentle of a ruler. He's blameless and tender, and keeps up with more common duties. He is not as rash and blunt as Ulysses. Telemachus is not striving to be as well-known as Ulysses did. He is overall more subdude than his father. So, Ulysses thinks of them as two different people. The line that shows this the most is the very last in the stanza, "He works his work, I mine." I can't really blame him for feeling this way, because he didn't know Telemachus for most of his life.
The quote “He works his work, I mine.” is the quote I almost picked in class today. I really think this line says a lot about Ulysses and Telemachus. Ulysses is saying that although Telemachus is his son, and his life has impacted him, he wants people to form their own opinions about Telemachus. Ulysses wants to be recognized for his accomplishment and what he was done as king, and from the passage, it is easy to see that he is describing what kind of king he was. He was a passionate king that was well liked by his followers, and he has done his best to make his kingdom fair. I think the poem is also saying that Telemachus will strive to be a better king and do many great things on his own with the wisdom he has learned from following his father. The quote, “of common duties, decent not to fail” I think is say that Telemachus will not mess up on the little things that his is really going to care for the small things in the kingdom, and strive to make it a good place to live.
ReplyDeleteThis stanza shows that Ulysses and Telemachus didn’t really have much of a relationship, which is pretty understandable considering Ulysses was gone for the majority of Telemachus’ life. In his description of Telemachus, it is very apparent that these two men are very different. Since Telemachus didn’t have a fatherly figure around, I believe he grew up to be more innocent and gentle than Ulysses ever was. It seems like by Ulysses’ description that Telemachus is a much more “mild” man to his people and uses gentler methods to rule them than Ulysses did or would have had he been there. I think the last line of this stanza, “He works his work, I mine” says it all. It is clear that they both have very different ways of doing things. Even though they are very different though, it is clear that Ulysses loves him a lot because he says “well-loved of me.” Also, even though Telemachus doesn’t do things the way Ulysses would, Ulysses must trust him and have a lot of faith in him because he believes that he will not fail and keep the island and people in order. I think this relationship that is portrayed here is very similar to the one in the Odyssey. The two men are very different in their ways and thinking, but they still have a lot of love for each other at the end of the day in both depictions.
ReplyDeleteThe second stanza in Alfred, Lord Tennyson is about Telemachus. Ulysses starts it off as if it is a will and he is willing his son his land and his reign as king. Then Ulysses says that he loves his son very much. He goes on to say that Telemachus is not the best ruler, but it is not his fault because of the people. Ulysses does say that Telemachus is a hard worker and is a very dutiful man.
ReplyDeleteOverall this part fits into the poem perfectly if it is Ulysses on his death bed, as we discussed in class. If it is Ulysses getting ready for another long adventure than it also makes sense, but the way the stanza is phrased it sounds like it is coming from a death bed rather than a man going on another adventure. “Meet adoration to my household gods, When I am gone” (Tennyson). It is as if he is proving that Telemachus is a good son and is fine when Ulysses is not around.
I agree that the way Alfred, Lord Tennyson starts off the stanza makes it seem like he is writing to Telemachus in his will. This makes the stanza fit well in the poem. Since Tennyson wrote this poem thinking of his dead friend, I think it is cleaver to make it appear as a will. The idea of death can even be seen in the end of the stanza when Tennyson writes, "...When I am gone. He works his work, I mine." In my opinion, the way that line is punctuated makes it more impactful. Because "When I am gone" starts a new line, it can be seen as the continuatoin of a previous though and at the same time the beginning of a new one. Because there is a period after gone, we are accostomed to pause. I like that Tennyson puts the period there because it allows us to think about the meaning of gone. Does it simply refer to the fact that Ulysses has been gone for may years or does it refer to when he will be dead? I think that it can mean both, which in my opinion makes the end of this stanza great.
ReplyDeleteI really have to agree with what everyone has said. Ulysses starts off as if he is naming who is to become king. He shows that he has strong affection of his son, but at the same point he doesn't seem to be that close to him. He makes it known that Telemachus has a hard job ahead of him making the people into useful beings. He also makes it seem like he is not the best of rules, but to not judge him on that. His stating that they both have different work comes off to me as saying that Telemachus is not the leader he was. Like Ulysses is trying to tell everyone not to blame his son, he is a good ruler but not the best. At the same point I like to think that when he talks about the difference in their work, that he is talking about death. Telemachus has his work on earth being king, and sooner or later Ulysses must die and do his work in the after life. I like to think overall the Ulysses is saying for people to be patient with Telemachus for he is not his father and that he must learn to rule in his own way.
ReplyDeleteI think that this stanza fits in with the rest of the poem in the sense that we feel as though Ulysses is possibly dying. This stanza is almost like his last words to his son and you can feel the love and maybe even saddness. He is giving away his beloved possessions and passing his throne onto his son. The way he speaks of his son you can tell he has love and respect for Telemachus. He talks about turning the rugged people into useful and good people, he obviously believes that his son is capable of this and knows that leaving the kingdom in his son's care will work out. Telemachus seems like he would rule alot like Ulysses, gentle but firm when needed.
ReplyDeleteI really would have to agree with what Emily said. I think that yes, this could definitely be Ulysses on his death bed, talking about his son. I think the line "decent not to fail" is proof that while even though father and son are different, Telemachus is bound to be a good king because of his bloodline. Ulysses is confident that Telemachus will be able to rule his kindom because he is Ulysses son. He says in the second and third line "to whom I leave the scepter, an the isle--Well-loved of me." This says to me that not only does he have the blood to be a great king, but that also, the people will respect him because he is of Ulysses.
ReplyDeleteI think knowing about the Odyssey and the way that Telemachus is able to take charge also helps support this because we saw that when Telemachus finally came into manhood, he was able to control men much older than he was. They just obeyed him they way they would have for Odysseus. Specifically, I think of the cowherd that helped Odysseus. Once Telemachus knew who Odysseus was, anything he asked of the cowherd was done without question. This leads to the last line of the stanza, " he works his work, I mine." While Telemachus sometimes when about a situation different than Odysseus, they both ended up getting what they needed.
This stanza of the poem was a little random for me. As we discussed in class, Lord Tennyson's poem was not originally called, "Ulysses" but rather under another title to remember a late friend. Lord Tennyson didn't make the connection of the Odyssey right away. Perhaps he added this part of the poem only to add to the character of the Odyssey within the poem.
ReplyDeleteI am very indifferent about this part of the poem; however I do like the tone it sets. It states in a very matter-of-factly way that relationships will not always be picture perfect. Ulysses and his son were not close, but that comes across as being perfectly fine. They go about things their own way which adds to the rest of the poem's ideas about living life. Sometimes it's good, lots of times it's hard, and always, it is constant.
Even though the poem describes many aspects of Telemachus, I feel as though the most of this poem deals with how Telemachus would be as a ruler. For example, the poem says, "through soft degrees subdue them to the useful and good." From this line we can interpret that Telemachus would be a more passive leader than Ulysses used to be. Also, it says, "in offices of tenderness." Tenderness portrays a kind and thoughtful leader. Overall, I think this poem also shows the contrast Ulysses wants between him and Telemachus's ruling.
ReplyDeleteI sense a real longing or regret of not spending much time with Telemachus. It is as if he questioning whether or not Telemachus can handle the scepter and the isle because he does not know what character make up his son really possesses. He is alluding to the fact that Telemachus has a long and hard road ahead. The line that suggest this to me is “by slow prudence to make mild a rugged people.” This is a nice way of saying that the people he ruled are impossible and he will have a hard time ruling them. If I had not read the Odyssey I do not think that I would have looked at certain lines as closely as I have. Knowing that he did not really know his son has a definite impact on the way I read this stanza. I do feel that he wants a connection with Telemachus but life had not granted him the time to do so. I think he wants Telemachus to know that he thought about him even when he was away from home. He is telling him that even though they really do not know one another they both have unconditional love towards each other as men. He hopes that his son can fulfill the expectations that he has and the expectations of the people he will rule over. I thought it was interesting how people interpreted this as Ulysses writing to Telemachus in his will. With the dark overtone that the poem carries I could totally see this.
ReplyDeleteBecause of the second stanza I feel that Ulysses and Telmachus did not have a strong relationship. The very last sentence of the stanza talks about how Ulysses work will always just be his and hints that it will always be better than Telmachus's. But Ulysses also says that it could be because of the rugged people around him. This also says that Telemachus is a more thoughtful leader and cares more about how the people feel rather than doing what is best for the people. Whereas Ulysses seems more of a take action regardless of feelings leader.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with what many people have already stated; I believe that Ulysses could be on his deathbed. However, I also interrupt the poem as Ulysses taking off again on another journey, and he is leaving the throne and responsibilities to his son. He introduces his son, “This is my son, my own Telemachus/To whom I leave the scepter and the isle,” and then he finishes by saying, “He works his work, I mine.” I believe this last line could mean that Telemachus will do his work as king, and Ulysses will do his work having adventures at sea. I believe that Ulysses has confidence in Telemachus, but he also believes that he will be a different ruler than he was. He states that Telemachus will be prudent, tender, and devoted to the gods. These do not sound like characteristics of Ulysses, who slaughtered the suitors when he returned home from his journey instead of using tenderness.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading this it appears to me that Ulysses and telemachus do not have a normal father-son relationship. Ulysses is giving all his responsibilities to his son without even asking if he is OK with it. Ulysses also proves to be caring when he says: "A rugged people, and through soft degrees Subdue them to the useful and the good." He shows here that Telemachus will care for the people and show them a soft side. Whereas Ulysses may have not done the same. He loves his son and trusts his son, he does not show it in the typical ways by saying: "I Love you" to Telemachus. He shows his love by having Telemachus take over his duties and putting his trust in him.
ReplyDeleteThe thing that really caught my attention in the second stanza of the Ulysses poem is the distance between Telemachus and his father. I really got the feeling that they are kind of just going their seperate ways in life. In the first two lines Ulysses explains that everything he has will be left to his son, but besides that they don't interact very much. He feels like he has a duty to lay guidelines for the rest of Telemachus' time, but aside from that they are distant. This point is made evident in the last line of the poem. "When I am gone. He works his work, I mine." Like Candice said, Ulysses shows his love for Telemachus by letting him take over his duties and giving him trust.
ReplyDeleteI think everyone has said much of the same things, and I agree with many of them. It does seem to set a very sad tone. Ulysses seems to have a lot of respect for his son, "Most blameless is he, centered in the sphere of common duties, decent not to fail in offices of tenderness." He recognizes that they have not had the most close relationship when he says "he works his work, I mine." This shows that they do not have a very strong connection. He admires his son's tenderness and kindness towards the people he rules. I took the phrase "when I am gone" more in the sense of death because, as I said, the poem has a sad tone. I just think it makes more sense that he is on his death bed, although it is possible that he would hand down the throne to his son if he was going on a journey.
ReplyDeleteClearly Telemachus is "Well-loved" by Ulysses. Ulysses also trusts Telemachus deeply. Look at lines one through four. Ulysses does not seem in the least concerned about leaving the task of ruling Ithaca in Telemachus's hands. He also has faith that Telemachus will be such a great and respected ruler that the people will turn from being "rugged" to being "useful and good." Ulysses also says that Telemachus will bring about this change "through soft degrees." He is saying that Telemachus will be a kind and gentle king. This is further supported in line 9 with the words, "offices of tenderness." Ulysses also sees him as a good, "blameless," person who will "pay/Meet adoration to my household gods." He is saying that Telemachus has a good heart and respects the gods. This will keep him in favor with the gods and bring prosperity to his people, the land, and his rule as king.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Ulysses could be saying how since he's been gone, and when he dies that Telemachus will inherit all that was him, although Telemachus is different than him I agree with Kaitlin when she said he seems to be on his death bed and he would have liked to be closer to his son but it's too late. I believe he is stating that his son will do a good job in taking his place, and I believe he is stating that Telemachus will make his own mark on the people who loved Ulysses. Where he states, "to whom i leave the scepter and the isle" i believe proves that he is dying and is leaving his son everything. I do believe having read the Odyssey helps influence my interpretation because as we all know Telemachus set out to find out things about his father since he never really knew him since his father was always gone and that is why in this poem Ulysses is stating he is leaving everything to his son altho he knows his son is a very different person.
ReplyDeleteI agree with mfunn420 and Erica's view of the second stanza being a statement of will from Ulysseus to his son Telemachus. As discussed in class Alfred, Lord Tennyson wrote this poem keeping in mind his dead friend. Ulysseus puts it in his will that his land and property will go to Telemachus once he is gone. He is also talking about Telemachus fulfilling his duties as a ruler and a son. The first line of second stanza "This is my son, my own Telemachus" - shows the pride in the voice of Ulysseus who thinks highly of his son and loves him a lot.
ReplyDeleteThough there can be another interpretation of the second stanza. It might be that ulysseus is refering to Telemachus succeeding him when he is away traveling the seas. In his absence Telemachus will rule his father's land and people.
I totally agree with previous posts that mentioned Ulysses believes that Telemachus is going to be a great king. Moreover, I felt he is very proud of his son, for his wisdom and courage. This whole stanza sounds like an appraisal to Telemachus. And when it fits in this poem, the purpose of this stanza sounds like Ulysses is telling people what would be left after he dies. It’s like a promise to himself, comforting himself that his son is going to do great. If the death bed theory is correct, then this would be Ulysses’s last will, for his son, and his kingdom.
ReplyDelete“Of common duties, decent not to fail.” This line pops up to me, because it makes me to relate to The Odyssey by Fagles. Telemachus in the Odyssey is a really careful and modest character, and he took his responsibilities to protect his father’s kingdom and grew up to a real hero. Therefore, this line summarized Telemachus, and with the background of reading Fagles’ translation, I can back this line up with evidences and more concrete feelings to the poem.
It seems as though Ulysses is proud of his son, but he also realizes that they’re different people as is shown in the line “He works his work, I mine.” Knowledge of the Odyssey affects why I feel like this because I know that Ulysses is a hero. He is a calculating person as is shown by the fact that he was a tactical leader at Troy. Telemachus, on the other hand, is a more emotional person as is shown by “decent not to fail / In offices of tenderness” and less logical. In addition to this, another difference is that Tlemachus will transform the rugged people into being useful and good, which is something that Ulysses never did (although to be fair he was off fighting and trying to come home…)
ReplyDeleteThrough these stanzas of the poem Ulysses almost makes me feel like he is talking about someone who is filling a position and not refering to his own son. He speaks of qualities relating to how well he will work. Although at one point he refers to them as common tasks as opposed to the tasks Odysseus completed he clearly views them as legendary. In the end he says "He works his work, I mine." I felt like he's implying that everything he has done will have gone down when he dies and when Telemachus dies he will only be remembered for what he has done. That the two will never be linked.
ReplyDeleteI think this shows Ulysseus being a great father. He's handing his thrown down to his son and recognizing him as his successor. He wants Telemachus to lead the people in the right direction and to greatness.
ReplyDelete"A rugged people, and through soft degrees
Subdue them to the useful and the good."
Having read that stanza again and putting it together with the rest of poem, it kind of seems as if Ulysseus is preparing for death. He's handing his crown over to his son, reminiscing on the times he and men had together, and re-collecting his journeys.
test
ReplyDeleteUlysseus talks about his kingdom and how how great of a king he was and continued to go on and on about it but I really think that his son Telemachus is ready for a new start. He wants to make his own kingdom and be his own king. He wants things to be great from his "reign". I think he really wants to change the people from the kind they were when Ulysseus was king.
ReplyDelete