(Image from whenwegetthere.com)
In the autobiographical short story "The Day They Burned the Books" (1968) Jean Rhys' protagonist recalls hearing this phrase in school from English children. It is indicative of the tenuous position "colonials" or "creoles" face when they are not considered truly English and also considered unwanted outsiders in the land of their birth.
Creole, as we have defined the term in class, means 1) a language that originated from contact between two or more languages; 2) a person of European ancestry born in the West Indies or Latin America; 3) a person of French ancestry in the Southern US (usually in Louisiana). We talked today about how New Orleans is a location in the US where this mixture of European, Caribbean, Native American, and African cultures is still visible and viable. Creole, whether it be the language, the people, or even a style of cooking, always means a mixing of cultures and traditions from several places. This combination creates a new, unique culture--one inseparable from the often violent and oppressive history that caused these cultures to connect in the first place.
As we begin reading Wide Sargasso Sea, let's take a moment to consider how the West Indies (specifically Jamaica) is represented in Jane Eyre. How do the characters in Jane Eyre describe the West Indies and the people who live there? How do people from there act? How are they like, or unlike, the English? As a class we have already noted the reoccurring concern in Jane Eyre with finances and inheritances. What other moments in Jane Eyre demonstrate a concern with economics? With defining other cultures and countries? With slavery? Be sure to use textual evidence to back up your position. Do you agree with Rhys assessment that "Charlotte Bronte had something against the West Indies"?
I do not recall any mention of Creole or the West Indies in Jane Eyre. After scanning through the book, I still was unable to find more than a brief note that Bertha is a Creole. For this reason, I think that Charlotte Bronte probably did not have anything against the West Indies, but she does not give any sign that she is in favor of them either. It is more likely, in my opinion, that she was mostly ignorant about the West Indies and did not have much of an opinion about them either way. If anything, Bronte was probably proud of England, which might lower other lands in her opinion.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kara I think there are much less direct references to being Creole in Jane Eyre than in Wide Sargasso Sea, but I think there are some things that show Brontes opinion.
ReplyDeleteWhen Rochester is telling his story about how he met Antoinette "Bertha" Mason, he describes her as such... "I should have made them no subject of reproach to my wife, even when I found her nature wholly alien to mine, her tastes obnoxious to me, her cast of mind common, low, narrow, and singularly incapable of being led to anything higher, expanded to anything larger (353)."
So here it seems like Bronte is saying that the way that these people in the West Indies act is completely different than the way people from England act, and that they have lower tastes and abilities. Even though he is just referring to Antoinettes "obnoxious tastes" and her "low, narrow mind," I think it's probably likely that she held this opinion of the Creole people in general. It doesn't really go into detail how her tastes were different than his though, so I'm not sure how Bronte thinks they act compared to the English, but in general I think she just thinks they are below the high society that is the English people.
Social class and economy is also a huge player throughout the book. In the beginning she lives with a wealthy family and when asked if she would like to go live with her poor relatives if she had them she says, "No, I should not like to belong to poor people (30)." She goes on to say she doesn't see how poor poeple could be kind or have manners. Economy also plays a big role with her relationship with Rochester. She is constantly feeling self-concious about the relationship because she has really nothing to offer him money wise and she feels like she would be really dependent on him. In fact, it isn't until she inherits the money from her uncle that she finally marries Rochester and is able to become his equal. Her inheritance also allows her to have more power over her decisions. Had she not had a penny to her name like she used to, it probably would've been much harder for her to say no to St. John's marriage proposal.
I can't tell after reading this book if Bronte had something against the West Indies because I don't think there is anything that could lead someone to think that definitively. Obviously Rhys saw something that she thought was against the West Indies, but that may be because she was from there so it would be easier for her to recognize it in the text.
I think Bronte had something against the West Indies. A little before the passage Christie pointed out, Rochester also describes Bertha. He says, "Berth Mason is mad; and she came of a mad family; idiots and maniacs through three generations! Her mother, the Creole, was both a madwoman and a drunkard!" (page 337) I think in this passage, the attitude they have toward the Creoles is very negative and derogatory. To start, it is described that Bertha is crazy, just like her ancestors. This gives the impression that many others of the same culter and crazy as well. Furthermore, the fact that they say "the Creole" instead of a Creole seems very derogatory to me. This passage seems to have a very negative connotation. This makes me think that Bronte did have something against those of the West Indies.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Erica, to me, that passage makes it sound like Mr. Rochester has an issue with Bertha's family. He has plenty of reason to be upset with them, after all. Expanding it to say that the author had an issue with all Creoles and the West Indies seems a bit of a stretch.
ReplyDeleteLike mentioned above, the only real reference to being Creole was Mr. Rochester's wife, Bertha. The ony real information we get about Bertha's background is that her family was wealthy, which is why Rochester's family wanted to marry into it, and Bertha was beautiful.
ReplyDeleteAs I mentioned in class, Creole reminds me of Jimmy Buffett. (Not cruddy "Cheeseburger in Paradise" Jimmy Buffett, but the great, story telling, culture enriched Jimmy Buffett).
Buffett often slips other languages into his songs. Themes include travel of course beach bummin', but pirates, costal exploration, travel, and the water. An unexpected amound of French and New Oreleans themes also show up in his music...
Some examples are as followed.
"He Went to Paris"
Tells the story of a man who goes to Paris, falls in love, fights in a war, and loses it all. Quiet bitter sweet, the song is told as Buffett's interpretation of a story told to him.
"Jimmy some of it's magic, some of it's tragic, but I had a good life all the way."
"Coast of Mareilles"
Song about the French city of Mareilles.
"One Particular Harbor"
The creole language of Tahiti is used in this song.
IA ORA TE NATURA
E MEA AROFA TEIE AO NEI
IA ORA TE NATURA
E MEA AROFA TEIE AO NEI
UA PAU TE MAITAI NO TE FENUA
UA PAU TE MAITAI NO TE FENUA
Translation-
Nature Lives (Life to Nature)
Have Pity for the Earth
(Love the Earth)
BOUNTY OF THE LAND IS EXHAUSTED
BUT THERE'S STILL ABUNDANCE IN THE SEA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYolwtdpYL4
Kimmy
As many have already stated the only real reference to the West Indes adn Creole is when Rochester is talking about his wife, Bertha. The way she is described and the reference to her heritage defintely isn't a compliment in this story. However, I'm not sure that Bronte has something against the West Indes. In my mind at this time period the West Indes were sort of like an exotic land that the English didn't know a whole lot about. I can only imagine that she got her knowledge from rumors and stories of returning travelers. I also think she may have used the fact that no one knew a whole lot about Creoles so she could describe her anyway she wanted and people would buy it. It reminds me alot of when english settlers encountered native americans, not every settler had met a native american but they all had bad opinions of them from rumors and stories. One triber of native americans or group of creoles can ruin it for the whole bunch so to speak.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the above posts, in particular Karas. I went through the book a couple different times and I could not find any direct or even indirect mention of Creole in the book. As Kara also mentioned in her respone to Erica's post, I don't see how Bronte may have had a problem with the Creoles'. There seems to me, very little evidence to support that. In my opinion, I think she may have just not had a enough proven fact, versus what prejudice she may have heard. It could be she created Bertha and her background based on what she heard in passing, not in hatred she had for Creoles.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Christie said. I think Wide Sargasso Sea has more direct references to the Creole people than in Jane Eyre. In Jane Eyre, Bronte gives us her opinion of the people of the West Indies very discretely. That quote on page 353 proves that Bronte has a strong opinion on the people from that area. She almost makes it seem like people from England have better tastes and are just overall better people. And to go off of the quote that Erica found on page 337, I agree that her using Bertha as a "crazy" character may in fact represent her attitude toward all of the Creole people. She obviously has a very strong opinion on social classes since this is what a lot of Jane Eyre was about in the first place.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading the past several posts, I now agree with Kara. She pointed out that it seems more like Rochester is the one with the problem against Creoles. This makes more sense since that is the only spot in the book where Creoles are mentioned. I also agree with Kartrina that she did not have enough proven fact about the Creoles.
ReplyDeleteI also didn't see a lot of mention of Creoles, except with mention to Bertha in Jane Eyre. Being successfull economically is realy crucial in Jane Eyre. Or at least being able to support oneself. In the beginning Jane may loathe the Reeds, but she knows how hard it would be to live with a poor family, and she says she would not like to live with them. For Jane I think having money means being on equal standing with those around her. She feels herself as an equal with Rochestor even though she works for him and she also does with St. John. After she runs away, the first thing she asks for is if they know of any position she can take, so she can earn her own living. After she inherits her money, she has a new found confidence. She is definitely an equal with those around her and she has no qualms now with speaking her mind.
ReplyDeleteI agree a lot with what Christie said. I think Jane Eyra has more subtle prejudices against Creoles. I like how the point was made that Bertha may actually be Bronte's representation of that entire culture. From the quote said earlier in 353, I felt that showed strong feelings against Creoles and people from that general area."Her cast of mind common, low, narrow, and singularly incapable of being led to anything higher, expanded to anything larger (353). It is funny that he should say that, her family had money, and since they were slave-owners, I would think that they would have had some education. I feel like he thinks of her almost like a slave, just like slave-owners did. That they were stupid, and that they couldn't learn. The fact that he goes to the length to say that she is common and stupid and isn't able to learn shows how much disrespect he seems to have for her and her family. It almost sounds like he is referring to an animal.
Like Kara and Katrina said, I also found it difficult to find direct references to the Creole people and the West Indies; however, I did find some passages that do make it seem like Charlotte Bronte may have had something against the Creole people and the West Indies. I think that she at least believes that they are not as superior as people with European ancestry.
ReplyDeleteIn some instances, Bronte does not state anything negative about the Creole people, but she does make comments that make it seem like people of European ancestry are more superior. In chapter 27, Mr. Rochester explains to Jane the story of how he became married to his wife. He explains that he was sent to Jamaica because a bride had already courted him. He comments on her beauty, and he also notes that "her family wised to secure me, because I was of a good race" (352). In the footnotes, it states that a "good race" probably meant "of European race" (569). This makes it sound like European people are superior.
In addition, although Bronte does not say anything badly about the West Indies directly, her description of the place makes it sound like a horrid place to live.“It was a fiery West Indian night; one of the description that frequently precede the hurricanes of those climates. Being unable to sleep in bed, I got up and opened the window. The air was like a sulphur-streams- I could find no refreshment anywhere. Mosquitoes came buzzing in and hummed sullenly round the room; the sea, which I could hear from thence, rumbled dull like an earthquake” (354). Mr. Rochester also explains that “A wind fresh from Europe blew over the ocean and rushed through the open casement: the storm broke, streamed, thundered, blazed, and the air grew pure” (355). The West Indies is a grueling place to live, but “a wind fresh from Europe” was able to make it bearable. These quotes make it sound like Europe is a superior place to live than the West Indies.
What everyone has said so far is wonderful. I have to agree with the main theme that has been going on in response to the topic about references to Creole. Like what everyone else has said I have not seen anything specific mentioned about creole or the creole people. Like people have mentioned Bertha is the only person I have seen with a connection to Creole. I also agree with what has been said that Rochester is the one with the problem regarding Creole people. He just sees Bertha and her family as crazy because of the circumstances.
ReplyDeleteThe passage that Christie describes does make me think that Charlotte Bronte did not think highly of those from the West Indies. This is not particularly her fault though. I think that this stigma was placed on anyone who was not English and she was simply influenced by society's norm at the time. The description 'alien' signifies to us as a reader that Mr.R and Bertha could not have been more different and this is because of their cultural differences. The comment about her mind being narrow and common says that the stereotype for people of the West Indies was that they were not well rounded and this belief could have stemmed from the fact that the Indies are pretty secluded so they would not have much knowledge of the world. This does not mean they are unintelligent but rather possibly misinformed. Economy and social class seem to be the defining characteristics of one seeking marriage. It seems that love has no role in society's marriages but rather the fact of whether the person you may marry will bring you up in status. I can’t find the line but Jane says early on that Mr. R could not have had any interest in her because she is beneath him in class. I think it is great that in Jane Eyre that class becomes irrelevant to Mr. R and Jane because they experience true love. However, this is not how things generally worked.
ReplyDeleteI agree with all the earlier posts that Creole is used in Jane Eyre only in association with Mr. Rochester's wife Bertha. One such indirect reference to Bertha is:
ReplyDelete"Sometimes for a fleeting moment I thought I caught a glance, heard a tone, beheld a form, which announced the realization of my dream: but I was presently undeceived. You are not to suppose that I desired perfection, either of mind or person. I longed only for what suited me - for antipodes of the Creole: and I longed vainly."(Bronte 358)
This is Mr. Rochester's answer when Jane asks him whether he found anyone he liked or whether he asked someone to marry him after his marriage to Bertha. His answer to Jane's question shows a desperation that he was deceived into his first marriage by his father and brother. He is making it clear that he did not desire for perfection in his future suitable companion but his only wish was that his companion should be the 'antipodes of the Creole' that is he wanted someone who is not a Creole. He had a very negative picture of Creole women based on his first marriage therefore he was averse to idea of finding another Creole women.
I do not think Bronte had anything against the Creole people. In the novel, Mr. Rochester did not like Creole people which was solely because of his personal experience with his wife Bertha.
You know, looking through the book for specific references when talking about creole and the west indies, I had a hard time finding any. When I read about Mr. Rochesters wife, that was somewhat what I was looking for but it wasn't mentioned in the book. I really feel like she probably just didn't care. Or maybe just didn't know much about it and that is where lack of mentioning comes from. I think someone else may have mentioned her ignorance about them as well
ReplyDeleteAs many of the other posts have stated above there seems to be little if any reference to Creoles in Jane Eyre. Except Mr. Rochester talking about Bertha. Bronte herself seems to have little if any knowledge of the West Indies and her opinion of Creoles like others of her time would be a negative viewpoint. Because they are of a different culture and speak differently than the English she would probably think of Creoles as uncivilized and of a lower class. The English viewed Creoles as people who are of the New World that would not respect (England) Old World laws or the king. They were locally born people of a foreign land. They may have come from England but they are not recognized by England as English. Creoles could also be of mixed descent.
ReplyDeleteWhen we were in class Wednesday and it was mentioned that there were references to Creoles in Jane Eyre, I was a little surprised because I did not remember a thing about it. Going back through my notes, like many of my classmates, I found an asterisk that Bertha was creole. I agree with Kara and everyone that said Rochester was the one with the problem with Creoles. It didn't appear that Jane herself much cared about the issue. Wide Sargasso sea, as Christie said, is full of direct and derogatory references to prejudices against Creoles.
ReplyDeleteI didn't see anything in Jane Eyre mentioning Creoles or the West Indies at all. I don't want to say that Bronte has something against the West Indies, I just don't think that it was an important piece for her to write about. It wasn't a main focus for her to really mention. Now, the part where Christie is talking about Rochester and the difference between himself and Bertha, I think that part was important so that we can see where it all started and how everything progressed to him locking her away in separate quarters of the house. When we see the difference early, we can understand that it wasn't an instant decision for him to just rid her of the outside world. From the beginning we see that he didn't like things about her and I guess you can say once it got to a certain level, he decided to take action.
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